Ep. 13 | AJ Hikes: Designing History, The Realities of Allyship, & "Doing It Scared"

From being born on a military base in Okinawa, Japan, to fundamentally shifting global queer culture from the heart of North Philadelphia, AJ Hikes joins The Kenlo Show for a monumentally raw conversation on legacy, visibility, and self-preservation. In this episode, we pull back the curtain on AJ’s historic creation of the Philadelphia Pride Flag with black and brown stripes, navigating viral global backlash, and surviving death threats while holding down a solo office at City Hall. AJ details growing up under an inspirational Spelman VP mother, becoming the youngest Upward Bound director in Ivy League history at age 25, breaking systemic foster care cycles, and knowing exactly when to step away from 100-hour political workweeks to choose healing over burnout.

Transcript

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Hey everybody, it's your goal Ken Low back at it again, and welcome back to the Kenlow Show, the people's platform of the creative community. And tonight we have AJ Heikes of Sway Philly, the advocate, the activist, and it's so great to have you here tonight. Thank you so much. I'm really, really, really glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Of course. How has your week been? How's your day going? You know what? It's been a week. It's been a week, but that's okay. We at the weekend now, so I'm feeling good. I'm feeling it's it's wild. Like the week will get you down, and then as soon as you hit Friday, it's like I got all kinds of energy. So that's what I'm feeling right now. I'm good, and I'm really glad to be with you. Thank you. I appreciate that. We're gonna get right into it. I'm sorry, wasting no time. So boom, all right. So you were born in Okinawa, Japan. Oh, yeah, we get right into it. Yeah, that's true. So you lived in Japan, Hawaii, Georgia, and Louisiana. And otherwise. Yeah, that's right. So tell us how it feels to be from a few places but nowhere at the same time. Could be somewhere but nowhere. You jumped right into it. Oh my goodness. And yeah, you did your research. Like that is, that's right. I'm a military kid. You know, I'll tell you, I'm I'm a little jealous of people who were born and raised in one place, and they can say, like, oh, I still kick it with my friends from kindergarten and whatever. Like, I don't have that experience. Um, so I missed out on that. But something that I learned from having to bounce around a lot is I feel like I can connect with a lot of different people because I always had to restart again and again and again. And that was hard, but I also had to find, I had to find my people everywhere I went. I had to find things in common with new people. And that was a skill that I think actually helped me in later parts of life. But you know, if I'm honest, like it was a little lonely. It was it was a little lonely. And when people always ask me where I'm from, like I claim a few different places, but I'm I'm definitely a southerner at heart. I'm from Atlanta. Um and that's that's where my people are, that's where my people are from, that's where my people still are. Okay. But honestly, I claim the second place I claim is Philadelphia because Philly. Because Philly is the first place that I got to choose as an adult. And it's the only place that I chose, right? Like all the places that you named are places that I had to move because I was a young person, and that's I was in the military, or my parents got divorced, and then my mom took us somewhere. But Philly, I chose as a person, and I continue to choose Philly. I had to go and move to New York to work, and I never left Philly. I kept a home in Philly, I come back to Philly all the time. Like, I, you know, and I feel like Philadelphians sometimes, I get into it with Philadelphia sometimes because I feel like Philadelphians don't like appreciate the city in the way the folks who are not born and raised here do. Like, Philadelphians always like they ride for their city, but they always got a little something like a little shade to the city. I'll be like, why are you? You're right every single time. Why Philly? And I'm like, no, like this, this city, it like it latches onto you, and it doesn't let it really is. Good. I love my city. And I love I love Philly too. Like, I mean, it's been God, it's been, yeah, it's been 20 years now. So 20 years. Yeah, maybe like 19, but yeah, it's I love that. It's been a long time. You know where the drawings did, you know what I'm saying? Like the drawings. So I I I love this, I love this time. I love that. Now tell us about your dad and your mom. You said they got divorced, right? So what was that like growing up with two parents and then having to be with them separately? Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. I don't talk about that divorce a whole lot. Like, um, they had a really tumultuous uh marriage, and they should not have been they're not, they should not have been together. There was a lot of uh there was uh there was a lot of violence and there was a lot of disagreement and just a lot of challenge in our marriage. And my mom left with my sister and I when I was she like left like she left her so much. She yeah, she really did like for her safety and for us and her sanity, and like it was the right, it was the right choice, like they just didn't need to be together. Um and we didn't see my dad for years after that. And um, and that was like when we were young people, we didn't get it. Like when we were kids, I really didn't understand. We missed him, didn't understand what was going on. Um and we had seen a lot of the a lot of the the shit between the two of them. Um but you know, when we were young, like you just don't we just don't get it. But my mom, she had been through so damn much. And I my mom my mom passed in um 2008, and I always wished that I had helped to like write her story because her story was just so inspirational. Like, my guy, and I mean the black mamas are just like my god, black women in general, but black mamas are just like just everything. This woman had a story that would truly inspire the masses. Um, but yeah, she chose herself and she chose her kids and she restarted and built a life that frankly she never could have had if she had stayed with my father. And honestly, I don't know. Yeah, like you feel me? And like he also he remarried, he got with somebody that made so much more sense for them. And honestly, probably who he should have been with in the first place. I really like I looked at him like, oh, y'all really, y'all really love each other. And they've been together, they they just celebrated that celebrating actually next weekend, like their 20 wow god, their 25th wedding anniversary or something like that. Yeah, they needed to be together. Yes, and um, and and so I don't know, I'm a child of divorce, but I like believe in divorce. I really feel like my parents divorced too. I'm like, oh yeah. Y'all, y'all good. You're right, y'all good for y'all and for the offspring and for the everybody, like y'all needed to not be together. And I think that I was able to see love in a home after they divorced in a way that I never would have been able to see it if they had stayed together. So this idea that people need to stay together for the kids, please don't. Please don't, please don't, please don't for everybody, just don't do this so that you can, yeah. So being raised by my mom and in that home and being able to see her as more of her fuller self when she wasn't in the strife that she would have been with, you know, partnered with my dad, really helped me understand what like a loving household looked like. Um, but yeah, my dad, they were, they were, they had an interesting story. Like she was very much like the goody-goody academic, like mind her P's and Q's. And my dad was definitely like the bad boy. Very much the bad boy. Yep. Yes, like came from opposite sides of the tracks, like yeah, like Starcross lovers, the whole, the whole damn thing. And yeah, she went off and did college and multiple degrees, and my dad went to the military, and if he hadn't gone to the military, probably would have ended up in jail. Like you understand. I get it for sure. You get it, you get it. So they made it work until they didn't. And uh but I ended up in Okinawa. I was born in Okinawa because my dad was in the military, and that was a military base that we were on when I was born. And so I have Japan on my passport. I was gonna say, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah. And I love how you talk about your mom and her accomplishments. And speaking of which, she was the VP for like some like prestigious colleges. Yeah, yeah. She was VP for a Spelman College, uh, historically black, and she spelled she went to Spelman um as her alma mater as well. And uh Virginia Tech. Yeah, so she was best president of both of those places. So, what did you learn about yourself through your mom them having these accomplishments? Like, what did you learn about power? Oh my gosh, she has such a good question. Oh my god. My mom, um, I think for a lot of us, our moms are like some of our first role models. Um and that was definitely the case with mine. She likes watching her resilience and then dealing with shit that she should have never had to deal with. Um and I think I had like a unique experience because she was on a college campus, and like, so she was a vice president of a historically black university that was like black women, you know, down, right? Spelman College is known for that. And then was also right after that a vice president of a white university. And so watching some of the experiences she had within community with our people, like she definitely struggled at Spelman as well, and then seeing what it looked like to be a leader at a white institution with all them white folks and the shit that they were just I just know the stuff she went through. You just, it was, it was wild. They can't take that. They can't. They can't. And I mean, we didn't talk, I mean, it was Virginia Tech, and so my mom, I mean, this is like gets a little more detailed, but my mom was there during the Virginia Tech massacre. And all those people, like, she was the vice president of student affairs and that happened. She like called in the SWAT team during that match. So, like, that was, I mean, that's a whole nother wild thing to talk about and the trauma that came after that. But like, watching the things that she dealt with in a personal life and then the professional life, it's just it's a it was a microcosm of what black women always deal with, just always having to be the strongest and always having to push. And so it was hard to see that lesson and see her go through it, but honestly, like I think um it helped me understand what would be expected of me and the way that people experience me in the world and taught me like strength and resilience. I love the thing. Um, you know, in a in a way that I don't think anything uh ever could outside of that. You know, the other thing I'll add is that my mom was an educator and she comes from a long line of educators. I come from a long line of educators, and um, I always joke that like the women in my family and the people in my family, we attend graduations the way that people attend weddings. Like child taking degrees. Yo, we go off for a degree, like we go off for education. Like, I've never heard anyone say they go to like honey. Commencement was like the festivity. Oh, right. Because, like, you know, people can get married, divorce, whatever, da da da. Oh, you can't take that away from somebody, right? And so that that is something that we put on a pedestal, and that's something that we really appreciated as a family. So she taught me that, and the women in my family taught me that like people can take a lot of things from me that can't take that degree, they can't take that education away from you. They they can't take that away. And so I learned that from her, and that meant a lot. No, you really don't. I'm gonna tell you where you what you got, your mom and you, right? Boom. So, because you gotta think about the accomplishments that you have, and we're gonna talk about it right now. So, tell us about Sydney 2000 Olympic opening ceremony. You really did your research. This is crazy. Not going back to not one? Yeah. So, what was that moment like for you at such a young age? Goodness, oh my goodness. I cannot believe this. This is 25 years old. I cannot. So, yeah, um, I was in the Sydney Olympic band. Which is so wild. So I was a musician as a young person. I guess people say, like, once a musician, always a musician. Um, and I love, love, love music. I thought music was what I was gonna do. Um, but you get to a certain place, mostly you get to college, and it's like you either like go and pro with this or you need to find something else to do. That's what they say. Right, right. It'll humble your ass real quick. And so I got humbled. It was the same thing with sports too. It was like, okay, you're good at this, but you're not good enough, so go find something else to do. Um, and so that's that's how that works. But uh I was good enough to be a part of the City Olympic band. And what happened was I was in Georgia at the time, you know, I'm a Georgian. They, the Olympic committee, picked the best bands from the cities that had previously hosted Olympics to make up a 2,000-person international band. So my, I know. It was like a really interesting, kind of gimmicky concept, but it was, but it was dope. And so we were the best high school band from Atlant, like to represent Atlanta. So we represent Atlanta before I think. It was a really it was a really good marching band. Um, so anyway, so yeah, that's how we got to go there. Uh the thing, we got to go to all kinds of, we played the Olympic ceremonies, but we the opening ceremonies, but we also got to go to and watch some of the matches and stuff like that. Um, that was really cool. But the thing that I remember the most about the 2000 Olympics, so in order to be a part of the Olympic band, you have to do band camp, which is like Oh damn, I say it right. Like, I know about band camp. You have to go to band camp. And they weeks before the Olympics, you have to go out there, they put you up in like um dorms. Um uh yeah, and you have to like you're training around the clock because it's the Olympics. So you're just waking up, training, training, training, like all of that. You you're doing drills with these folks who are some of the best musicians in the world. And so it was an interesting experience to have as a high school student, as you can imagine. But the thing I remember the most is so I played clarinet and at different parts of the at different parts in the performance, we were next to um, you know, uh uh trumpeters, so folks who play trumpet. And these guys, the Italian trumpeters, I will never forget them, they chain smoked like I've never seen in my life. And I'm like, I'm I'm I'm a kid, right? They would play trumpet out of one side of their mouth and smoke out of the other. Smoke sugar. Yo, they were elite. And if anybody knows anything about trumpet, like I don't, that's an instrument I don't play, but it takes a lot. It takes a lot of air, but you also like you have to position your mouth a certain way to hit certain notes. So it's not just that you're blowing, right? Like that's the thing with clarinet, you're just kind of blowing and your fingers are getting the different notes. But with trumpet, it's like how your mouth, and same thing with flute, like how your mouth is fixed, gets you a different note. So they had to be precise. And they were still getting precise notes out of one side of the mouth and chain smoking with the other. And that is what I took from the 2011. You said this was cool, but how y'all doing then though? Exactly. Like the candidate was cool, y'all boom, but the trumpet, let's talk about it. That I'm telling you, 26 years later, that's what I remember. So boom. So you already reached success. Boom. She had no day at the Olympics cool doing the stuff. Bow. So now we get to freshman year of college. It's when you come out, you got to do the stuff. Yeah, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what was that like? How was life after that? How did you feel, you know, coming out? Being who you are for your pride. Oh my God. Um, yeah, I came out, you know, I think like a lot of people, I I I dabble. I have my little situation before I before I came out. Um, but my mom was actually, yeah, I came out to my mom before I came out to my sister. I have I have a sibling that I grew up with. I have other siblings as well. My my sister I grew up with in a home, she's two years younger. And she still to this day is pissed at me that I didn't come out to her before I came out to my mom. She's still mad about that. She I'm like, girl, you are 40. Like, we are grown grown. But she, honey, she's Aquarius. She holds the feelings. So many, so many feelings. Love you saying, Mom, but you know. You understand. Um, but my mom, my mom actually brought me out, so she pulled me out of the closet. Child, I was dating, I guess they referred to her as a dyke. I was dating a dike! The dyke. One of these, like, the old heads used to call them like thousand footers, like you can see from a thousand feet. That's that's a lesbian. You said one thousand footers. So I was dating one of those, and my mom was like, What's what's good with Allison? And I was like, Oh, Alison, oh no, that's my friend. What's my friend? We just kicked it. And at some point she kept asking about Allison, and at some point she was like, So, um, is Allison a lesbian? I'm like, I don't know. Is it the oh my god? I hadn't even thought about it. Is it Allison? You know what I'm gonna ask her? I'm gonna ask her, she's like, girl, I'm gonna get the fuck out of my face. And so then eventually she asked if Allison and I were lesbians together, child. And um, I was aghast at even that question. Um, but yeah, uh I ended up crying, bawling, child. What? Yeah, she she literally was like, I think you have something to tell me. I remember it was Super Bowl Sunday. I was on my way to a Super Bowl party, and I was like, I really gotta get off the phone. And she was like, All right, I'm gonna help you, I'm gonna walk you through this. Mom, I am like she literally walked me through the conversation. I never actually said the words. I never said the words. I just started crying, and I apologized a lot. And I think that was because I was like an overachiever, perfect kid. My sister got into all kinds of shenanigans. And I mean to be fair, maybe I did a little bit too, but I was like star student. Yes. Really just wanted to, after all the things I just said my mom had been through, I just really wanted her to be proud of me. And this thing I knew she was not gonna be proud of. And so I couldn't even say the words. I just apologize. I'm just I'm so sorry, I don't want to disappoint you. Um she said she loved me, and I wasn't, I I didn't disappoint her. But I will tell you, after that, we didn't talk for a few months. Really? Yeah, and that's a hard thing. That's a hard thing to admit. Um yeah, I think and we talked all the time. I think she just, I think she must have needed a beat. Um and she did. She definitely needed a beat. But it was that was hard. That was hard. I, you know, it was so many years ago. I'm trying to remember if I called her and if she called, or we just miss each other, we just gave each other time. I can't remember, but I do know that we didn't talk for a few months. Um, but when we did, she, and I should say I came out as bi at the time. I came out, ah, eh, eh, ah, yup, yo, peoples. Um, I did. I came out, I came out as by, and the only thing she asked me, she goes, so okay, she was really trying. She goes, okay, so you're bisexual. So if Denzel Washington is walking down the street this way, and Halle Berry is walking at you this way, who are you? Like, girl, what are you talking about? Girl, girl, they both fine. Like, what'd you mean? But like, Hallie. But I'm Holly, girl, but you know. So she was trying. She was trying. Um, but it was, it was, it was challenging to come out to her because I didn't want to just. I understand. I understand. You black mamas. Yeah, like my mom was like, hmm, you real questionable. Yeah. Just in general. You are just. And I'm like, damn, like, wow. She wanted me. So she so she knew. Yeah, like she knew, but she like questionable. That's a very specific thing. That could only mean one thing. She said, You would tell me, right? I'm like, yeah, mom. Oh my god. Like, I was like, I'm never coming out to be a good one. They'd be knowing, they be knowing. So I was, you know, 16, had my little friend, and like, she came over. I'm like, Was your friend a thousand footer too, or no? No. No, no, okay. She was cute, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the time. Because you know, we're 16. So cute to me. I understand. I understand how that goes. So she came over, spent the night. I might get us my friends. Yeah. Then I posted a picture on Instagram, got myself caught up. Boom. So somebody said, Oh, bro. You do that to yourself. Like, come on now. Shout out to my aunt because she loves me down. But like, I was before her for like years. I said, damn, like, why would you? We won't tell my mom. Like, that's what we're doing. So now every time I'm at the cookout, I'm on your baby. You got me. You got me a beef. You're my sister. You're my sister. So, boom, that happened. I came out, she like, she like, I used to push you with all these dresses. I'm like, they're not like I'm never gonna stop wearing the dresses. It's cool. Like, she cried, and I was just like, Oh, wow. So it wasn't until two years ago, she said, Can you ain't gotta make me proud no more? I was like, you know, you get married to a woman to have a baby. You know? I was like, wow, did that fling in a way? I was like, wow. And I turned around, looked outside, said, Wow, the grass is greener. I was like, you know, damn, I needed that. And I said, for years I felt like I had to keep making you. Of course, of course. He said, You got the degrees and everything. You're fine. Wow. And I was like, oh, all right, sorry. Bet, bet, say less. Yeah, say less. We good. So that's amazing. Like I love that. A black mouse. I think it was. Oh, that's a beautiful story. Boom. So I heard you was the youngest. The upper band director. Oh my god. Where are you getting this shit, y'all? I need to Google myself, is what I do for you. So tell us about that. You was a young John. Yeah, I was a real young John, man. How does it feel to be like so enthralled in community at such a young age and just knowing who you are, stepping into it and just showing people, hey, this is me. This is what we're gonna do. So I I always knew that I wanted to like work in education. I didn't know, and I know you an educator, you understand. We love our educators, we love our educators. Um, I knew I didn't have what it took to be a teacher. So, like, you know, all hats off to those who educate our children. Thank you for your work. Um but I knew I couldn't do that, but I wanted to be in education because I come from this long line of educators. My mom was in higher ed, um, and I thought that's what I wanted to do. Um, but I come from folks, a lot of folks that have like gone to college, and I wanted to help young people get into college. And so I that and that, and I I was working, I went to I went to Penn for grad school, and right after that I was like, I want to stay in West Philly, I want to work with West Philly kids, help them get into college. And um I applied to this job right out of grad school. I was the youngest person I knew by a thousand years in this applicant pool. And on my in my interview, when I was going, I went for associate director. And when I went and I was like, God, child, I was a baby. I was like 20 shit, 23, 24, like I was a child. And so I but I told the director at the time, I was like, look, I know you have more qualified people. I know you do. I know you have more experienced people, I know you have smarter people in the pool, but here's how I'm gonna tell you nobody's gonna outwork me. Come on, and I ain't got no. No spouse, no pets, no kids. I ain't got nothing going on but this job. So if you hire me, I am, and I don't quit. You see my transcripts, I'm a hard worker, I'm smart, I'm dedicated. You get me, you got all my time. And if I put my mind to something, I'm gonna do this damn. Child, I didn't think it was gonna work, but it worked. And so I got that job, and I was like, what? And that was the associate director job. And I was gonna do that for and I was gonna rock that till the wheels fall off. And then my mentor, the director, he ended up leaving about a year and a half in. He got a big fancy job at the district. And he was he was out, and I was not gonna go for the big job. I tell you this, I was not, I was like, I'm giving me like you wasn't like, I'm gonna stay here. I'm good, I'm good. I'm like, shit, I'm just happy I got in here. Let me just do this little job. I was 25, like, what do I look like going for director of the upper boundary University of Pennsylvania? And um, the the assistant of the program is a woman, there was a woman that was in her 50s at the time. She might have actually been pushing 60. And she came to me and she was, I got shit all the time for being the youngest person. Yeah, of course. All the time, you know, like ageism is a real thing, the opposite, the way with like, yeah, but there's a like a reverse ageism thing that happens too. People are always just like making all these jokes about me being young, being a kid. They would all be talking about, oh, you don't remember that, you were you were in diapers. You know what? They might have been right, but like, you know, come on, man. So I got that shit all the time. So I think that part that partly was like interfering with my confidence. But this older woman who was our assistant of the program, she was like, So you're not gonna even go out for the job at all? You're not gonna even try. And I was like, No, I mean, like, there's other people that are more qualified. She goes, You don't know that? You're not gonna even try. She's like, Look, all kinds of people end up having bosses that are dumber than them, lazier than them, and they have no choice. That's who they have to work for, and they can do the job better than their boss. You may end up in that situation, but you would have put yourself there. You were you're not even trying. You could be the boss, and you're not even trying. And I was like, I mean, I I guess that's a fair point. And I think she was also just being a little bit selfish too, because she like didn't want to have some random ass boss. So yeah, I went out for the job, I got the job, and that's how I became the youngest director of an upper bound in the country. And uh, yeah, I did that job at 25, which was wild, because upper bound is high school students. You happen to get high school students into college. Yeah. And these kids, like, the oldest of them is like 17, 18 years old. So they looking at me like, kid, he can get on my phone. They like they're like, hey, hey, let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah, right. Like, come on, stop playing around. So that was that was a that was a lesson for me, like, you know, having to assert my own confidence, but also like not do too much, because like let's not act like you know, let's not act like there's a 20-year difference here. Um, but the funniest thing about that is that uh those students really helped me grow as a leader, grow as an educator, and a lot of them were actually queer. And I kept a very separate life at that time, but you know, kids be finding each other. And once Facebook didn't know how they do a date, they find you. They find you. But now, this happens all the time, that I will be in a sway party, and people from behind will be like, hey, is that mix? And I'm like, Oh my god. I'll be at the sway parties with the with the with the students. But the students, honestly, kid, they're older than you at this point. And you have to remember, let me see. I did the upper band. But yeah, because you said 25. So it was like 2000. I got that job in like 2009. And they were easy. You have to think about how old you were in 2009 because they were like, exactly, exactly. So some of my kids were 17 in 2009. So they in their they were in their early 30s. And I'm like, you know what? Let me pack this shit up. Like, it's too much. The first time that happened, I just froze and I said, it's a wrap. Like, I'm done. Hey guys, let's have a talk. Like, it's not me anymore. Exactly, yeah. We did that. I was like, you don't need to do the myths. We're not doing any of that. We're all grown. Please don't do that in this club. Oh my gosh. Like, okay, so boom, because you know, we're not done yet. Oh my god. You and this research, this is because you know, they say you loved English. Yeah, I did, yeah. Psychology and social work. So you understand the people more, what they do, how they operate. I do, yeah. Boom, right? So, because you know, I'm looking at the car like, damn, like so tell me how it was, like, how did you how can I put this? Because this is AJ. I'm like, I'm worried about what's coming. I don't even know what's coming. How did you manage to put all that in one and keep building yourself into the person you are at Sway, the person you are outside of Sway, like talking to people, how did you become the leader that you are? Yeah, yeah, you're so funny. Like psychology, social work, English, like it's all so random. And now that I think about it, like I think people ask me about my career, and like, how did you get here? And I'm like, man, it was a little bit of this, a little bit that was all over the place. Yeah, talking about that journey, like how was that? It's just it's so wild. But then when I think about the degrees, I'm like, yeah, child, this was all over the place too. It was just, but it was always about people, like people and helping people understand themselves better, helping people um find ways to like break down systems in order to get the resources that we needed, like that's what social work was about, and just find community. Like, that's all it was ever about was finding community. Um so yeah, child, I've done I've done everything. Like, I did education, I've done nonprofit work, I've done government work, I've done community organizing and activism. Like, the only thing I haven't done is corporate, because that is just not for me. Like, shout out to the corporate baddies, thank you for your work, but it's it's not for me. Um, but it's it's all just been about finding my people and helping my people find each other. And like that's always what it's been about. That's just always what it's been about. And I come from, in addition to educators, like I come from a long line of like activists and folks that are like blackity black, black, pro, pro, pro, black, like always been about our folks. And so that's always been the undercurrent of all of it. Like, yes, let's build community, but how can we do it for us to make sure that we are good? Because they're always gonna take care of themselves. How can we make sure we're good? So that's been so it's you know, I think that's always been the through line too. Like, whether it's been young West Philadelphia high school students that are trying to get into college, or it's been organizing with queer community, or it's been, yeah, the Office of LGBTQ affairs, or it's been like the ACLU and talking about marginalized folks and how we like make sure that we're protecting our own rights. Like, all of it's just been about how do we make sure we're good and we're looking out for each other. Because at the at the end of it, like all we all we got is us. Like, seriously. We're all we got, but we're all we need. And I love how you push that message, like this is about us at the end of the day. Like, you know, because of how we're being treated, yes, we have somebody in position that just thinks the worst of us, and like you said, we all we got. So would you say this was always your calling, or was did it just come to you? I think we wanted to get away from it. This is oh my god, I think it's always been my calling. And I think that I tr I tried to do other things, but this always popped up. Like, I I talked to people that people ask me that want to get into activism and advocacy work. They're just like, okay, how do I how do I get the job? How do I get this job? And I'm like, I I I was always doing this work in a volunteer capacity, or um, you know, was my third job, or with the other things that were actually paying me because I couldn't do something else, right? Like I was always pulling, even if it wasn't paying the bills, it was a thing that just like paid my soul, right? It's a thing that loved paid billing. Yeah. Like I'm just saying shit, right? But like that's that's really what it was. So I could never get away from it. It always kind of like had me, much like Philadelphia's always like held on and this never let me go. Just gets his hooks into it. I love it. So yeah, I don't I don't think there was another way that it was gonna be. It was just like this is just always what it was gonna be. I loved it. Boom, okay. You and these cards, you're making me so this is so good. Come on, AJ. We gotta, you know, we gotta, we gotta get into it. TED Talk, pow. Oh my god. Okay, boom. You got everything, yo. So, because I remember watching the TED talk and I was like, wait, anything I got a tad boom. So tell us about that moment. Tell us about the conversation we had with people, even going up there and talking about everything. TED processes. LGBTQ community, how was that? Yo, I I know for some people, like, oh, I want to do a TED. Like, you know, people have like it's a it's a part of the bucket, it's a bucket list thing. I had never considered doing a TED talk. I never thought, I just it wasn't something that was on my list. Because I didn't know what the hell I would talk to people about. Look, I don't know if you always like, thanks for coming to my TED. I never knew what I would talk to people about. Um, but the TED people approached me because they had seen a speech that I had that I had done on the circuit where I was talking about, um, and this was way before 2020, and everybody was talking about how we need to like interrogate our biases and like, you know, um uh our the anti-racism conversation. It was it was before that. It was like, I don't know, in 2016, 2017. I was talking about the work that white people need to do. I was talking about the work that allies in general need to do. I mean, because you have to remember, like, I did the flag with the black and brown stripes years before that to be able to say, we're gonna get there, we're gonna get there. But like that flag was calling out racism within the LGBTQ community, and I use that as an opportunity to be like, white people, we need to have this conversation. Like, y'all gotta clean your house. And so somebody saw a video of me getting the business to white folks, white gays specifically, um, being like, y'all are a problem, and just because you are marginalized identity doesn't mean you can't also be racist or problematic, right? And they were like, Okay, liked how you did that, like your little flair. Can you do this for a bigger platform? And I was like, say less. Tell people how they can be better people and take care. Yes, absolutely. So, um, but I but but by the time they came to me, it was in COVID. And so I didn't do it in front of a TED talk, uh, in front of a TED audience. I had to do it in a studio because nobody was actually, you know, they didn't have TED audiences. So that was a thing that was a little different. Okay. Um, but the process is interesting. They came, um, they had me essentially like write out the talk, and they're like, You got whatever, like I forget how much it is. I haven't seen, I haven't seen it in a while. But let's say it's like a five-minute talk. And so they're like, You gotta get to a type five and say what you want to say, get these points, da-da-da-da. And I was like, Okay, and you submit it to them, and they, you know, they edit. It's kind of like when you write a book. Oh, but you got an editor that's just like, all right, this is good, but you gotta get rid of this. You can make this punch here. They added some graphics and like go into a studio, did a bunch of hair and makeup, and then recorded it, and it was it was a really dope experience. But yeah, and the last time I talked, uh last time I looked, it had like over two million views, which is like really wild. Yeah, we got that dale too, boo. Yeah, we heard who was getting up there. Come on, come on. Yeah, it's it's been seen. We talked about what you did in the community, built it, loved it, damn. We're gonna talk more about it though. You already know. Um so let's talk about sexual orientation and sexual identity. Because I like how you said sexual orientation is who you love and sexual identity, gender identity, who you are, right? That's exactly right. Yeah. Walk us, talk us through that. Well, what's your perspective on it? I used to, when I was um, when I was in the mayor's office um of LGBT affairs, I used to have to do a lot of trainings. And I train, train everybody from like the teachers in the district to like the cops, very different groups, right? To like people at DHS who were dealing with foster care and trying to teach them how to put kids in DHS as well. Yeah, absolutely. So I was trying to teach them how to more um thoughtfully and strategically place LGBTQ kids because what we saw, and not to go down a whole rabbit hole, but this is how I'm bringing in the social work, what we saw was that LGBTQ kids in foster care were getting kicked out of their homes at a much higher percentage than um than than straight kids. And it wasn't because they were more rambunctious or disorderly, it was that they were there the the people that were placing them were not doing their due diligence and making sure they were placing them in affirming homes. Yes. So the kids who were largely kicked out of their home for being queer were put back in the homes and kicked out of those homes for being queer again. And so then you see LGBTU's homelessness continue to shoot through the roof. At the time that I was in the mayor's office, it was like 40%, like just absolutely through the roof of these kids continuing to like have this cycle of um trauma and poverty. It was just awful. And I'm glad you mentioned it because I recently started polls again. So you know what? I literally last week was like, I gotta rewatch Pose. Yes. So this is the sign. Thank you, Universe. It made me think of when um I forgot the character's name when he got kicked out. His dad heard it. It just it literally just brought me back to that scene and thinking about that was in 1980 something. So the fact that that's still happening. Of course, absolutely it is. We people need still need to be taught about the community. They do. And even if you don't agree with it, at least be affirming of the fact, okay, this is you, this is me. That's right. We don't have to beef about it. You know what I'm saying? I don't have to hurt you. Absolutely. So I'm so glad you're talking about. And things we were trying to just teach the the social workers and the foster care folks was just like, ask the right questions. I'm not just like, I'm not saying you need to um that you need to try to make somebody who is like clearly homophobic be accepting. Not saying that. I'm just saying don't put the gay kid in the homophobic home. Come on. That's it. Ask the right questions so you know, okay, this person's homophobic. Let me just not do that so you're not further traumatizing this kid. I digress. So, but I did a lot of trainings. And in those trainings, I would talk to people about the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. And I explained it as, right, sexual orientation is who you love and gender identity is who you are, right? And so you can think about it as like sexualitation is your heart and gender identity is your brain. Like, right? Um, and so for me, my sexual orientation is queer, and that is a it's a sexual identity, but it's also like a political identity. Like I'm queer, I'm not like gay, I'm not lesbian, like I'm queer as and fuck you, and like give me my rights. And it's it's it's expansive, like it really is. And my gender identity, yeah, my gender identity is is is also queer, but it's it's non-binary, and that's like an in between. Like, I'm not a man, I'm not a woman, and I'm not like yes, I'm not a man, I'm not a man. I'm not a child, I'm not a man. No shady man, but I am not a man. I'm not a man, I'm not a woman. I am, I, I'm I'm I'm more than that, I'm more expansive than that. And um, it's been an interesting journey being non-binary, right? Like, I feel like you were gonna make me go there anyway. Yeah, it's been it's been it's been interesting. I think I like officially kind of came out and changed my name. Um, God, it's been a few years. You remember that? It's been a few years now. How was that? Like, tell me all about it. We gotta know AJ. I like so I went by AJ when I was a young person, and AJ is just my first and middle initials. Right. And I've played a lot of sports, and like I just went by AJ. Okay. And then when I went to college, I was like, I'm not gonna go by that anymore. I'm gonna go by, you know, my my my given name because it's more mature. You know, you go to college and you're like, I'm gonna have a different person. Right, that's a child's name. Okay. And so then I went by the full name that a lot of people know me as, which is which I I don't use anymore. It's my it's my dead name. I asked people not to use that name. Okay. But but then it just, I came back to AJ. It felt like, you know, we come back to ourselves in certain ways. It felt like it just represented me. It just felt like, oh, it really, that's exactly what. And so um I had friends that were already calling me AJ, like people in my personal life, and but finally telling the world and telling work was a big thing. And one of the things I thought about was like, God, you know, some of the things that you like were able to look up your research. So much of my life was under this other name. What does it mean to like start again? So I love how in your captions, how you always it's always relatable. And I love how you speak to the LGBTQ, and it's like I A plus, let me edit. So come on, come on, we gotta be, we gotta be clear. Because, you know, when we get sometimes we get a spokesperson, you know, like that head person of the LGBTQ. And you know, in Philly, we don't really have it a lot. It seemed like people like you, Jason Bowman. You know, it's like we have people that we can laugh with, dance with, you know, party with, but also, you guys aren't afraid to go to these different spaces when we're not accepted. You guys aren't afraid to speak up when we're not being accepted. You know what I'm saying? So for one, that's what I appreciate. Let me start here. I appreciate that. But two, how are you able to navigate through their journey, letting people know and correcting people? Like, how does that, how, how, how is that correcting people? Because I know people might get offended. But how do you help them through it, understanding that this is a respect act? Yeah, you know, this goes back to like allyship. If I'm really honest, I've been so lucky to be surrounded by people that are like my my friends, my family, but also just like associates, people that I'm in community with, like, frankly, folks like you that are like, okay, I know the name, I know the pronouns, and if they hear somebody get it wrong, they will do the correction for me. So I don't have to do it all the time. They'd be like, oh, actually it's they, them, right? Actually it's AJ. And look, I'm I don't get offended. I I use that name, the other name for a long time. And people don't mean harm. They just called me that for 15 years, right? So it's so so it's challenging, but I am so lucky to have people that will do that correction for me. So it never got particularly exhausting for me. The two things that I think really made a difference for me is one, the ACLU, the job that I was at at the time that I made that transition was incredibly affirming and didn't miss a beat. And it meant a lot to also be a very senior leader at that time. Like I was I a very senior leader, the only non-binary leader, and to make that make that switch and have the senior team of that organization be like, okay, this is it, and we're gonna get it together. And then you also have an entire organization of thousands of people who are like, oh, okay, AJ's got a different name, AJ's got different pronouns. We're all on board. So we're all on board, right? And we're gonna correct each other on it. And I was able to be in space with folks who's just like, it is gonna get exhausting for me to do it. So, like, call your call your colleagues in. And also the work that I did there was about like going back to the TED talk and going back to those conversations. It was about how we call each other in when we get shit wrong. Like, that's been my work for my whole life. It's just like, yo, somebody uses, somebody uses outdated terminology, or somebody says something that's offensive, like call them in because that's what you do as a friend. That's how you do as community, like, oh, you know, actually, we don't use that terminology anymore, or like, hey, I think you might have gotten those pronouns wrong. So, hey, here's a real life example for how you can do that. So that was the one thing that really changed it for me. Like being able to seamlessly transition did everything. The second thing was my dad. My speaking of dad. My dad came out. How is that? Um, so my dad, military man. Yeah, 6'3, um, yeah, big dude. 6'3, um, yeah, southern black man from Florida, 44 years in the United States Air Force. Like, a man's man. A man's man. And um my dad and I have had a complicated relationship for most of my life, but he has always been in my life and has always wanted to be a good dad. And even with the challenges he had with my mom, I give him, I give him the credit. He's he was a, my mom used to even say, terrible husband, but very good father. He really, he really was, he's really and and is a very good dad. He um, but because of some of those challenges, and he he would he will admit himself that he he was pretty homophobic when I was a young person. Like said, said, like before I came out, he didn't know that I was gonna just say shit about yeah, we should have, you know, we we all know. He's going in. Right, exactly. People on the street, people on TV just say it's like, damn, like you just throwing these words around. So when you're a kid and you're hearing that, you're like, okay, this is definitely not a safe space because this, mm-hmm. So he was not the first person I came out to. And in fact, child, I might have been, if I'm real honest, I might have damn well been like the grand marshal of the pride parade before I even said anything to my dad. Deadass. Like, I'm not exaggerating. I think I was really the grand marshal of Philadelphia Pride before I came out. I think my dad literally saw that and was like, hey, so I think I saw you on the news. Like that he said you was with the people. Those people. But it was like, you know, it was one of those things, like, I, and it I I don't know, I gotta I gotta think about it. Maybe it wasn't fair, but that part of our identities is a very personal and intimate thing. And we get to choose who we share that with. We get to. Even when people make assumptions, even when people may know who you sit down with and who you disclose that to, it is a gift to do that. Yes. And I knew my dad to be homophobic. And so I didn't feel like I was gonna bestow that gift upon him, to be honest. And so I didn't. But obviously, I was a very known homosexual child. I was a known homosexual. That's like, yeah, listen, I ain't coming out too personally, but you won't see. But you can Google it. Like, you literally could at that point. You don't get to just be the Grand Marshal of Ryan by being like a random gay. Right. He's like, listen, like them people, but he like, damn. Damn. Right? So, so, but to his credit, really didn't miss a beat with that. Was actually like, and never really gave me shit for not saying anything. He was like, all right, so I saw. And like, oh, is there somebody you want to introduce me to? Like he rocked with. So that was he was he was actually. How did that feel? It was it was a wild. I remember, I mean, I was in college, and I just remember being like, damn, like the first, like, I guess, girlfriend he met, I was in college, and and I still hadn't said anything, but he was like, okay, all right, great. And then later on, he was like, oh, this is like really a thing. This isn't a phase, this is that, and never said an unkind word. Nothing. He is the homophobia that I experienced was about other people, and he'll talk about it. He was like, look, he would he even told me we talked about this year. He was like, I know I said some out of party shit. He was like, you know, come from a certain generation. Right. This is the way everybody around us talks about it. Oh, yeah. He took accountability, that's how you do it. Absolutely. He was like, and he would say, he was like, I had nothing against gay people, you know? That's how they talk about it. I had nothing against gay people. But you know, I come from a certain generation, that's how people talked about it. So that's how I talked about it. And I I understand that. So that was on the sexual orientation side. The gender identity side was actually something that was like very similar. But um, I told him that I called him up one day and I said, Hey dad, um, I'm going by AJ now. Okay. He was like, Oh, AJ. I was like, Yeah, you know, first and middle, he was like, I like that. AJ, that's great. That's great. He was like, that's great. He was like, that's great. He's like, oh, that's cool, that's cool. And he's like, yelling, he's like, Charlotte, uh, you know, you know, the last, you know, the former name, going by AJ now. She's like, okay, AJ, I like that. I was like, yeah, that's cool. And that was it. That was literally it. And so I told him, like, they them pronouns. He's like, oh, yeah, I've been hearing about the pronouns. He's like, I don't really, and I was like, yeah, you just like not she, her anymore, just like they them. So AJ, they are going to the store. AJ, they are coming to visit. That kind of, he's like, all right, that may take me a little bit longer, but I'm gonna practice. I was like, yeah, if you and Charlotte, that's his wife. If y'all could just practice, that'd be great. Da-da-da. He was like, All right, I'm gonna practice. And so this is a long way of getting here. But the two things that really made it so much easier was my job and my at this point, my dad is like 72. My dad is old, yeah. And I get old, he'd be okay with me saying that. He's old. Like that old man not missing a beat. That old 44 years in the military, 6'3, like niggas being like that was just like, all right, it's AJ. So I'm like, if my dad can get it, y'all sure. All can be configure this out. I'm literally was thinking, I'm like, it's a 72-year-old man. Okay. He can literally adjust. From 24. Yeah, that's that's the blessing. Yes, yes. If he can adjust, and he, I mean, he is on it. He will correct anybody else in my family. Yeah, I think I think Dad would probably call himself an ally. I think he probably would call himself an ally. I would say he's an ally too. So, yeah. That's a beautiful story, AJ. I think you understand how because when I'm a dad, you know, dad, they be too hard. My dad said, you know, you know you ain't supposed to be having no girlfriend. I said, girl. Anyway. He said, he said, you my daughter, I love you. Love you too. Correct yourself. Love you, dad. Get it together now. Oh, okay. We're going to that. Me personally, I was like, Leg of bro. I was like, I was like, yeah, the purple flag looks different. So I'm really sitting there, like, it's different. I'm like, yo, I'm like, am I tripping? I'm like, I said, I love it. I said, but how is happening? So I was really sitting there, did I see you pop up? I was like, who the fuck? I was like, yo, Leg of Brand, I said you ate. No, you mean like, so how did that even happen? What did you say? Who did you talk to? Oh my God. How did like, cause, cause, you know, for us, seeing it is like, okay, this is us. Like, y'all had your moment, but now this is this is all about us. Inclusive, what was that feeling like when it finally got pushed and we can finally see us within that, you know, finally feel in the community? And it's so beautiful to be able to talk about it during Pride Month. Um, I feel the flag is this is 26. So the flag is nine years old this year, which is wild. So next year makes ten. And, you know, we see those black and brown stripes because it's been adapted in different ways. We see them everywhere. The most frequently that progress pride flag, the one that also has the trans colors and has like a kind of like arrow going in the direction. That's like the most adaptive version. But I need, whenever we see that, I need Philadelphians to remember like that is an adaptation of the Philadelphia Pride flag that adds black and brown stripes that was born here. And even the creator of the Progress Pride flag says he took it from the Philadelphia design as an as an homage to the way that we lifted up black and brown community. And so that's Philadelphia history that stays there. I love it. So, I mean, there's a there's a long story with the flag. The shortest version is what people, like some people who know Philadelphia kind of like queer history, know that there was so much conversation, protests, boycotts around racism in the LGBTQ community, but specifically racism in the neighborhood, um, in 2016, 2017. Um, and there were incredible groups that were doing that, incredible journalists that were covering that, um, covering uh all of that work. Um, and there was uh the mayor actually called me um during that time. Yeah, the mayor called me when I was um I was in LA for a quick stent, still doing upper bound, and I'd gone to LA for for a year, and the mayor said, you know what, I need somebody to lead the Office of LGBT affairs. We need to meaningfully address racism in the LGBT community, and we're just not getting it the way that we need to. Um, and I need you, I need you to come in and do this work. And so I moved back to Philadelphia, and I'll be honest, I did not expect to do a flag. I expected to do, which we did, community conversations, policy, anti-discrimination legislation, right? Like get some shit through city council to say you cannot discriminate against us. Right. Because people be discriminated against in bars and places of public accommodation. Like we had no real black representation in the leadership of the community. Like there were a lot of problems. Woody's was like asking for multiple forms of ID from black folks, but letting white folks walk all in with nothing like racist ass dress codes, just like just so many things that black and black people were experiencing that was just egregious. Um, and to say nothing of like the iCandy uh bar, which is now um 254, uh used to be taboo, but that bar owner was part on tape saying saying the N-word. Like there was a lot that was going on. Um, so I expected to do like this kind of real substantive work. We did that, but in addition to that, we created this flag. And the flag was supposed to be a symbol. It was supposed to be a symbol of what Philadelphia was going through, the conversations Philadelphia was having, and really like kind of like marking, uh drawing a line in the sand and saying, like, we're not we're not gonna do this shit anymore. Because the racism in LGBTQ community is not a Philadelphia problem. It is an LGBTQ community problem that is everywhere. But it was like Philadelphia is just not gonna stand for it. Philadelphia. Exactly. Not here, it's not gonna happen. And so it was a symbol to say that this is a place that we're gonna have the conversation, this is a place that we're we're gonna root this shit out. And I thought it was simple. I was just like, all right, black and brown stripes, rainbow flag to center and uplift the experiences of LGBTQ people of color. And to say again with white folks, like, yeah, look, we can all wave this rainbow flag, but like our experiences of black and brown folks are different because you white gays can still be racist and are. I want to wake that up. Come on. Wake it up. Yeah, like in the same way that they'll be very quick to be like, yeah, can a black person be homophobic? Sure, right. Okay, so white gay, you get that, so then you can understand how a white person could be racist. Like, don't act like you don't get this. Get the fuck out of here. And so it was to lift that conversation up. I love that. Thought it was simple, but child. So the girls, you know, honey. The panties were bunched and bundled. So we raised the flag at City Hall on a Thursday for Pride Month. And I remember it like it was yesterday. Drag queens, we are family, the whole damn thing, child. And by Friday morning, it had gone viral. Like it was instant. Instant. And I started in the mayor's office in March. So we did this at the very end of May to get ready for like June. Okay, makes sense. So child, I was two months in, two months in, and it went viral. Some of the press was good, but a lot of it was bad. You know it was bad. And it was people saying, white folks, saying, we don't need this flag. This flag itself is racist. Um, saying it was ugly. All these damn colors. Right, right. All these damn colors. All these damn colors. Uh you go back and you see the racist shit people were saying, child. And then there were death threats. Like death threats, hate mail. I got death threats. The mayor got death threats. And that was a crazy thing. I was two months in and he was like, hey kid, um, uh, I know you just got here and your shit ain't even unpacked, but I'm getting death threats from like Alabama. Who are they? What are you doing over there? Alabama is. Yeah, it was right, right. It was viral. It was really viral. Like these people were hot. And they were calling me a Black Lives Matter N-word. They were like, they were saying all kinds of crazy shit, man. But here's the thing, Ken, they were proving the point. Right. Like the whole time you proving the point. That's why we had the flag. You telling me the flag's not necessary while calling me a black lives matter n-word and saying, like, I'm hijacking your community. Like, bro, listen to yourself. Your community. So if I'm bisexual, you bisexual. You got it, you got it, you got it. It says you gay in the y'all thought I was dumb. It thought I was dumb. Exactly. So yeah, that's a so okay. It was wild. It was wild. Distress. And I had it's a small office, but it's just me. I had no deputy. I ain't got no assistant. It's just me in the damn office shop. I couldn't pick up my phone. It was a moment. That was, I mean, that's what I was here for. He told me he needed to come, have me talk about the damn thing, so I talk about the thing. Yeah, he said, he's a oh wait, wait, wait. But the flag had never been adapted before. That's the thing. It had never been it had never been touched like that. But see, the way I saw it, I was like, look, we got rainbow flags, it got like, I don't know, like weed symbols in the middle. They got rainbow flags, got like the Puerto Rican, like meshable Puerto Rican flag. Like, we're adapted, and like the LGBT community has so many flags. Like lesbians have a different flag. The Bears got a damn flag. The king community has a flag. Like everybody got a flag. The lesbian flag has these colors. Like, has these colors right here? Like, everybody got a flag. What's the big deal with adding black and brown stripes? You know what the deal was. Shh. You know what the problem was. It's crazy. It's crazy. Wild out here, man. It's wild out here. So boom. You in these positions. They know we're about to get some AJ. So you've stepped down from being senior. Yeah, yeah. AC L U. AC L U, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I know this is a big moment for you. It is. So how are you feeling, you know, mentally, emotionally? How is this journey for you right now? How are you navigating this? Yeah. So six and a half years. This is my first time talking about it. Um publicly or really at all. Um this is such a hard time for our communities. Okay. And I feel like I agree. Yeah. All of our communities, like all the identities that we should have. So much going on, right? So much going on. And it's not just so much going on, it's just so much that keeps going on. It just doesn't stop. Yes. And um, it just doesn't stop. Oh my gosh. And if anything, like it's part of why I pour myself into the parties and the events. Like, we need to be with each other. We need to like shake some ass and catch some ass and we're gonna handstand and just like laugh and celebrate one another. Because they are at our fucking throats left and right. Oh baby. And I just got to a place where I was like, I eat, breathe, sleep, live this crisis every single day. And frankly, I have because I've just been in political work for as long as I possibly could be. And it's starting to like deeply affect my health. I can I can agree with like we like okay, well, people gotta understand just because it's not directly getting to, like, you know, it's like physically hurting you, you gotta understand we are a community. That's right. So when one person gets to take, that's gonna take on all of us. That's right. Like, I can't be a woman, be black, neither can I be bisexual. And I try to have these conversations, and I'm like, yo, I don't think you understand it. Like, I'm a problem to a white man or a white woman. Correct. Yeah, a big problem. Thrice over. Like, I walk in the room, they like, oh, who does? Yep. I'm just I'm I'm not a human. Yeah, I'm just existing. I'm not human to these people. That's what people gotta understand. We're not human beings. That's exactly what we're doing. We're not black to them. We're not making it very clear. Yeah, they're making it very clear. So this is the time, you pick the perfect time. Your time is on point. I appreciate that. So, with that being said, like, what are you doing for AJ? Yeah. That's gonna keep pushing the community part about yourself. That's that that's it. So, first thing, I'm sitting my ass down for a second. I love being here. I'm doing a whole lot of therapy just to like regroup, figure out who I am, and like also what does the community need? Like, I've served in this very specific way that I felt like was what the community needed. But like maybe I'm being called to do something different. Um and I wanna I wanna be able to listen and find out what that is. And I haven't been able to. Like, when you work 80 to 100 hour weeks, like you really yeah, oh, easy, easy, easy, easy. Um and that's what my colleagues are still doing, and I'm I I deeply respect them for it. I just can't keep doing it right now. I will I'm best serving my people by like listening and hearing what they need. I think the other thing that becomes so clear to me is it's like our time is not promised, right? Like losing my mom at a young age like helped me realize that it's just not promised. And so when I had some like health scares and health situations, and also just like spending a little bit more time with my dad and seeing that he's getting older and my nieces and nephews are growing up so damn fast, I'm just like, baby, this is the time we got, and I we just we really don't know how much of it we had. Like, I need to be present to the other aspects of my life because this one thing has just been the thing that I have done for so long, but like, what else is there? Right, and so I love how you put that. I want to find out what that what that is. And I would love for you to touch more about the therapy part. So you know how you know black people react like therapy gonna kill us. No, it will actually do exactly the opposite. Like, yeah, like so. Tell us about therapy. How has that helped you? What has it done for your mental, the clarity you've gotten? Oh my God. I mean, I can't say enough about therapy. I mean, it comes from like social work and the psychology degrees. Like, I've always felt like we need to be, we need to be doing that. But um therapy for me provides a mirror, right? Like a reflection back that's like desperately needed that I don't think you can get from anyone, anyone else like you can a therapist, as long as you got a good one. That's like an unvarnished, unbiased view. Um and I'm a person that needs a therapist that's gonna like tell it to me real. Like, just be just be honest, be wrong. Like, you can hurt my fucking feelings, it's fine, I can I can deal with it. Let's get do that. Like, let's just let's do it. Like, I'm I'm I'm trying to learn the thing here, I'm trying to be better. And therapy has helped me confront some truths about myself that I was hiding from and afraid to look at. Um, it's also helped me be able to recognize when I'm making mistakes, be able to be accountable to them, um, not take things so personally, um, not be so defensive, right? Um and I think it's helped me just be a better person to like so like to community, to partners. Like, I I don't, I just I can't say enough, I can't say enough about it. It's I'm not gonna lie, it's scary. It's really scary to like confront yourself that way. Um but it's necessary, I think, especially as we get older. And my first foray with therapy was like, frankly, around grief, right? Like just like trying to figure out. Yeah, like I've had a lot of losses, a lot of losses in my life. Um, but like having I had to go through therapy after my parents divorced, and then I had to go through therapy after my mom died. And I'm I'm a person that like I have a relatively positive outlook on life. I'm not a person that has like really experienced a lot of like clinical depression in my life. I don't experience clinical depression like that, but I've absolutely had episodic depression. And I'm, you know, I could be open and transparent about the fact that like when I lost my mom, like I definitely was in a place of like I just don't know if I want to be here anymore, right? And I'm not saying I had a plan and it wasn't like that, but it was just a kind of like what is what what is life? What does life look like? And what's the and I I therapy really helped me get through that and and recognize what worth I had to myself and to community. I love that. Beyond, beyond like just a person, right? And not to cut you off. So is this the part where you tapped in more with your ancestors after your mom's channel? Okay, so tell us more about that. That's exactly right. Okay. Like my mom is such a spiritual person, she's more of a religious person as well, and believes so much in us being connected to the people who are beyond this realm, right? But I like how you said religious and spiritual. Some people separated, so we continue to ask. For sure, for sure. Like, I mean, my mom was like religious, really, like I grew up in the church, still go to church every Sunday. Like, I'm like, I'm like religious, religious, but like deeply spiritual as well. Like, I talk to my ancestors. I feel like I'm guided by them all, like all the time. And my mom used to pray to our guardian angels. She also used to like talk to our ancestors. Um, the women in my family also were like I would call it, they were witchy in a way. I don't think my mom would call it that because she would say that's like you know, that's like of the devil or whatever. Right, exactly, exactly. But I'm like, child, they were witchy. Like they definitely were. They could they could see things, they could um predict things, they could feel things. They had like woman's intuition like on a thousand. I love these. Like, yeah, and that's like that's the spiritual piece, that's the spiritual piece of it. Um, but that being connected to those ancestors is also like where my passion comes from, where I feel like my like mission comes from as well, because I want to like, you know what I mean? Like, I want to do, I want to make them proud. And um, I feel like we're all here to make this world better for the folks who came before us and the ones that are coming after. Of course. So I feel very I feel very accountable to those folks. And therapy has helped me also like connect with them for sure. That's beautiful. I want to say this, y'all. Don't be afraid of therapy. Therapy has definitely helped me a lot. Yeah, you too. It helped me a lot. So, and I want to go back because I like I I get I got to 30 and I'm just like, damn, it's it's some other layers I gotta unpack. And I'm just and I'm not afraid to admit that to nobody. I'm gonna be transparent with sure. I ain't afraid to admit that. Like, I know that you know, being bisexual, coming out, that was a lot for me. Cool, we got through that. I know that now I had to navigate through this world with it. And being 30 and not even realizing that we got a president is a racist. That's right. You know, anything can happen to me. You know what I'm saying? Even from men that look like me, anything can happen to me. So it's like navigating this world, navigating who I am. Uh, go to the therapist. Like, please. Go see that lady. Please. Please for you. For you, right. And I and I and I wanna touch real big on this topic because I don't want to see our people continue to feel like they gotta suffer. Y'all don't gotta suffer like this. The suffering can't did it. We ain't gotta suffer at a job, we ain't gotta suffer in a relationship, we ain't gotta suffer nowhere. Like, as black people, we've worked hard and long enough. That's right. This ain't our battle no more. Hang that shit up, okay? That's it. Listen, but you know, back to the topic in here. Now, sway. Oh my, we're gonna talk about the party. So, how did Sway come about in like I know your heart, your heart is always in it. And you, you're a community person. So when you did, when you started Sway, how did it who who told you, hey AJ, listen, you gonna do this. Did anybody tell you, or you just was like, I'm gonna just go forward? No, my God. So Sway is. 26. Sway is like 18 years old this year. My God, is it 18? Yo, it is. Is it? No, maybe 17. 17. 17. I think it's 17. I couldn't even smoke. Yo, that's wild. Um, but it started with a lot of things. It was stimulus, is the very first thing it was stimulus. Oh my god, wait, no, because I remember the name stimulus. You do, yeah. No, yo, so that was that's what Sway used to be. Wow. It's the same party. So yeah, stimulus because it was done during the time where they were doing the stimulus with Obama and all of that. I remember that. Stimulus. Jesus. Go hold, go here. I'm gonna get it. So it started. Um, so I had a business partner then, and she was um, she's a white woman, and we met in the lesbian bar at the time, sisters, which was a, I mean, it was good for some people, but it was not, it was not a great, it was not a great bar, but it was like all that like lesbians had. And we were actually sitting at the bar lamenting how bar how bad the bar was. I'm like, oh my gosh, child, like lesbians deserve better than this. And we were total strangers. And she was like, Well, you know, you got so much to say about it, you should throw a party. And I was like, You should throw a party. And you know, and a couple drinks later, she was like, I mean, I don't know nothing about throwing a party. I was like, me neither. And then we just got to talking, and she was like a random white girl with like a mohawk, and like could not have been more different. And she was like, Well, I don't know, like, I don't know, if I do a party, I could probably, I could probably get like 20 people to come. And I was like, Oh, I could definitely get 20 people to come to a party. Yeah. And she was like, Well, what about what about that bar Stir? Because Stir had just opened up um over by uh Rittenhouse Square. Okay. And it's like a little hole in the wall, right? And we're like, you could get 40 people in there, right? And so we decided to do a fundraiser for the Philadelphia Dyke March at the time. And this was in this was 2009, and we were hoping for like 40 people, and it was like 50. And then we did it the next, we did it the next month, and a hundred people came out. We just did it every month by the sixth month, 600 people. That's amazing. And it wasn't at STER, we had to leave STER immediately because we already gotten bigger. And so we went to 10th and uh Chestnut, was it no, no, no, Tint and Walnut. Tenth and Walnut. There used to be a marathon grill there on the corner. Tint and Walnut. It's now a pizza place, but it was beautiful exposed brick, two stories, and we had a party, five dollars. Uh and it was a time. 600 people and what was clear to me very early on is that there was just a need, like a desperate need for the space. And throughout the year, stimulus. We also did a party called Arrouse. So there was stimulus on Friday night, arouse was on a Saturday night, alternating weekends. And then um, I got rid of arouse and we did back to basics because the stimulus parties got so big that people were like, oh, I miss when it was just like us in a sweaty basement party. You know, they wanted a Boschment. And so when we went back to like $5 and, you know, just like a sweaty basement party. And then after, and that was a taboo. And then after Taboo, the old taboo got knocked down, then I changed it to Sway. And that's and it's been Sway since so the name. I love first of all, I love it. So, Sway, what made you come up with Sway? I literally have no fucking clue. I don't remember. I literally don't even know what brought me. That was like what 20 2018, I think is when Sway was born. Child, I don't even know. I've never been very good at coming up with names. I don't know. I know. Like, I'm like, people are gonna come regardless. I don't, I don't even remember why I came up with sway. I really don't. See, think about sway as y'all. So one time, so it was me and one of my one of my old best friends, right? We like, girl, we like, listen, we we gonna get up, we gonna do something. What we gonna do? So I'm looking, I'm like, all right, we're gonna find something. She like, yeah, sway this and it's like, all right, never heard of it. Like, we out. Yeah. We go, we like, all right, it's lit. Like, we like it. Good, good. I was like, oh, what's it? So we went, it was lit, like we kept going. Like we went and stopped. So I'm talking about to the time, like the beginning. We'll look at all the events, buy the tickets, yeah, and then we just go. Uh I'm like, listen, I'm gonna get this ticket to here, you get this ticket there. I said, then after that, we just go get the drinks. Like we plan out, we're gonna do it. So I'm gonna say sweat has been a pivotal moment in my life where I'm just going there to shake some titties, take some ass, smile a bit, you know, you know. So I wanna say, for one, you again, great job. You know, I'm gonna give you your flowers every time. Thank you. I very much appreciate it. Okay, we love how you show up for the community. We love you, we love the fact for one, don't stop. I appreciate that. So we love sway, but now we got Sunday T. Yes, that's nice. When they drop, we flocked. Oh my god, it's my favorite. I don't want to be some Sunday too. For all the events, how do you choose your music? Because we're gonna play a game, but we're gonna get there. So, how do you choose the DJs? How do you go about the vibe? Like, what is your your genius mind thinking when you put this together? Oh my god. That is so funny. How do I choose the DJs? So the DJs, Sway has always had black DJs. Yes, period. Love it, and has had 99% women DJs. Um, women, non-binary folks, trans folks, like uh trans mass folks, but like assigned female at birth. I love DJs. I think the only male DJ we have right now is Kid Rock, who is just a is who's a brilliant. He's he's amazing, yeah, exactly. And I think we might have had a man somewhere in the past, but that's the that's the one I can remember. And so the the point is just to like uplift brilliant black DJs and the black women DJs in the city. And the music, I mean, I let the DJs vibe out. However, where I am like particular, people will probably say we could do. That's how you dance, you get dealing. I don't know about I don't know about all that. But I am particular about the dance floor being lit. And if I feel like it's off, I will let a DJ know. And I have Honesty. I I will let a DJ, I will not, I don't really tolerate killing the dance floor, even if they're building a certain vibe. And I have, I have, I hire extraordinary DJs, but there have been maybe three times in my career where I have uh fired a DJ on the spot. Yeah. On the spot. Oh. Cut their set three times, three times that I can recall. Cut their set. Oh my gosh. Same DJ? No, no, no, no. Different DJs. Three different DJs. Oh my gosh. Yeah, maybe I now remember four. But four, but that's not that's not bad for 17 years. That's not. Yeah, that's actually great. But it has to be, it has to be pretty done. Okay, so we got the fun part. Now, now your mental health with Dylan, okay, y'all. I ain't gonna talk about what happened at one of these parties with me, but AJ did a great job with handling it. Oh my god, what happened? You remember when my wallet went missing? Oh, recently. I do remember. Oh, you were hot understandably so understandably so. And let me tell y'all something. We gotta sort it though. I'm gonna get your ass. I'm gonna get your ass. I'm still waiting on those tapes though. I wanted the bar to give me the cameras because I was like But no, so how do you deal with that part of it? Like how like because you did so well. Thank you. It was like that does not happen. It was easy, it was easy to handle because it does not happen often. Damn! It really does not happen often. Something else happened that night where somebody, because somebody was running the car. Yes, there was somebody that was like running the there was more than one person. Yeah. Somebody was scheming. Somebody was scheming. Somebody was scheming. But we're pretty certain it was just one person that was scheming. It wasn't like multiple people that were doing it. It was one person that was scheming. Because it's really not that kind of space. You've been coming for years. It's not people are not really on that shit. And I will say this, we're also a space where there's not there's not a lot of fights. People can be tussling in this way. And so we're it, and so I can't take credit for it, although I do think the longevity of the parties, the community feel of it, like people look out. Like, if there has ever been a scuffle, the people at the party will break up the scuffle for security can even get there. No, no, no, no. Boom, boom, boom. Not here. Right. I watched, I watched us pick somebody up and carry them right on out. Like, no, no, no, not here. Because there's a respect for the fact that we have the venue, we have that space, and people will straight up just be like, don't mess this up for us. Come on. Like, do not fuck this. We gotta dress for us. We try to find our girlfriend. Come on, like, we look good. You doing all this also, like, it is not a cheap party. I recognize that. Like, I've got some nice venues that cost a lot of money, and it is not a cheap party to put on, and it's not a cheap party that folks pay for that ticket. Come on. And it's like, I did not pay $30 for you to be tussling and get this thing shut down early. So take it somewhere else. So my answer really is that I'm not doing much. The party is kind of self-uh, it's self-policed, it's community. I'm riding. Yeah, rottery. We take care of each other. We all we got, we all we need. Come on. We all we got, we all we need, eh? Boom. Okay. Somebody gets to a game. Let's go finish these lyrics. Oh my goodness. I gotta sing a little bit. Okay, me, me, me, me, me, me. First song. Uh-uh. Oh my goodness. Oh, you're getting real serious. Oh, we're cracking the water open for the first time. Get you one. All right. So all right. Okay. Your love is a woman. It goes on and on and on. You give me a really good feeling. Oh, trail. All right. All right. That's one. One. Okay. We are family. I got all my sisters with me. You finish it. Okay. We are family. Oh. Get up, everybody, and sing. Let me see. Let me see. Okay. Hmm. It's not right out. But it's okay here. I'm gonna make give me a way. Um, wait, which verse are we like? Pack your bags up and leave. Don't you dare come running back to me. I don't know if I like, you know, I think I jumped a verse, but you know. That's one of them. Okay. Okay, let me see. Your beautiful, okay. You beautiful. How'd it go? No matter what they say. This is your white girl lives, right? Okay. Your white girl playlist? Okay. No matter what they say. Words can bring you down. No, is that is that wrong? You had it right, words, words, words can bring you down. Yo, but when I tell you, I said I was a musician, I did not say I was a singer. Don't get me out of here singing. Okay, let me see if I can I can get my girl crystal right. Okay. Okay, so I gotta start from the second line. Just to do a hen because she came, y'all. Oh, this is uh just you know what to be fair? I never really knew those lyrics. I'm gonna be gonna make up. She gotta have a baby. Yo, love, when I tell you I have seen Crystal in concert so many times and literally, literally been front row, because she performs in a lot of like yellowas, da-da-da. I'll be up literally the same exact thing I did. Just like mumbling through the shop. It is, it's honestly shameful. And I'm gonna go get these little. Like, okay, but we're just gonna act like we didn't know. We didn't know that never happened. You got to show me love. Words are so easy to say. Bye bye. You got to show me love. Okay. And we did this. All right. Now we're about to get in. Ooh, this is a good one. For this game, we got. Oh, okay. So I'm gonna ask you a set of questions. Okay. You gotta answer quickly. So ripe be fire. Okay. Ripe fire, speed round. Okay. Okay. Morning pretzel or night aisle? Uh morning. Absolutely. Love date. Philly cheesesteak or Philly soft pretzel? Soft pretzel. I don't I don't eat meat. Okay, cool. Love date. Audrey lore or Tony Tony Morrison. Tony Morrison. But that's not hard. It's a hard choice. It's a hard choice, but it's Tony. Ooh. Ooh. Right. Ooh. Don't make me choose. The one song that is your whole entire life right now. Oh my God. Oh my God. Don't make me choose one. I know, I know. My whole entire life right now. You know what? Just because I don't want to give away the time because we're gonna, but you know what? Whatever. I've been listening to They Night Like Us all day. Just only because Drake dropped three albums this morning. I was like, what the So I've just been doing They Not Like Us just to be a troll. A movie that made you cry that you will never admit to publicly. Well, are you making me admit to it publicly? So no answer. No answer. Who won't keep it cute? Text or call. Text. Oh my god, please don't call me. Unless somebody's dead. Like, and that's I pick it up on my. I literally came up the phone, I'm like, what's wrong? What happened? I'm one of those. I'm one of those. Don't mm-mm. Please don't. If you can have dinner with any black woman, living or ancestor, who is it? It's my mama. Come on. A word that describes where you are right now in your life. Oh, God. Uh in transition. Ooh, I love this. Something you said you never do that you ended up doing. Circling the block. Damn. Circling the block. Whew, I found that in my soul. Look, we've all been there. We've been there. We've been there. The most filly thing about you. Oh my God. Child, I will say, I mean, I can't, I can't claim because I'm not a I'm I'm not a Philadelphia. I'm a Philadelphian, but I'm not like born and born and bred. But I say, I say John and Dickhead or John, I will say as a as a southerner, y'all is like the most perfect word. I love y'all. And John is the second most perfect. I'll say John until dad died. Come on. A thing you are completely unapologetic about. Come on. My queerness. Yeah. And blackness. The best advice your mom ever gave you in one sentence. Oh my god. In one sentence. Um my god. I'ma put it all in one in one sentence. Remember the rule of 25. 25% of people will love you no matter what. 25% of people will hate you no matter what. 25% of people can be God, I don't forget. 25% of people can be convinced and 20-25% of people can be convinced to love you. 25% of people can be convinced to hate you. Don't waste your time on people who are never going to fuck with you. Come on. I love day. Come on, Bob. It was good advice because it just reminds you to like put your energy into those who put their energy into it. I love day. What is the greatest and best advice that you would give someone stepping into their queerness or you know, into the community, finding themselves and wanting to be a voice behind the community? I don't even know what I talk about. Do it scared. Like do it do it scared. Um There's so many things in my life where I just took that leap and had no idea how it was how it was gonna go and how it was gonna land. And I'm all the better for it. So do it scared. Like go to the party, even if you don't have anybody else with you. Um make a commitment to yourself that like I'ma talk to two new people, I'm gonna talk to two new people, and then maybe I'm gonna leave then, but like do it scared. Um go on the date scared, right? Make the new friends scared. Tell tell your truth. Come out to somebody like scared. Um do it, do it scared rather than not doing it at all. Like life is just too damn short, and um you don't know what you're missing. So yeah, do it scared. I love you. That's great advice. That's great advice. I want to say thank you again, always, always thank you for being here. Thank you for being a voice. Thank you for giving us permission to leave when we need to, not just because we have to, you know, but when we need to, what we feel that we, you know what I'm saying? So oh, don't forget to go to Sway. You know, be there at Sway. Happy pride, happy pride. But I don't care. I feel like it's so much to be thankful about when it comes to you, AJ. So I just want to say thank you for being here. Thank you. And just keep doing the great work that you do. Because we love it. And thank you for this platform. Thank you for creating a space for creatives. Um, thank you for being you and like just being such a beautiful example of like living in your truth and pursuing the thing that you were born to do. Thank you. No matter what. I think it's I think it's a beautiful lesson for all of us. And where can they follow you at? Oh, you know, child, I'm not on the socials like that. Just just just Instagram, child. That's right. Sway. Hit the sway boo. I'm gonna be there soon. Hey! It's your girl Ken Low back at it again. But before we go, we have a very nice and cute exclusive from AJ. And I know I'll be back soon. My name is AJ Hikes, and I'm on the Ken Lo show platform. And I just wanted to share something. I know this is a really hard time for a lot of folks, and um, if you're anything like me, it can be tough to just find encouragement. I think, especially for creatives trying to create in such a frantically toxic environment. And if I can, I just want to offer some encouragement. Um, one of my favorite quotes is from Benjamin Mays, and um he says something to the effect of every person who's born on this earth, every man and woman is born to do something unique and something distinctive. And if you do not do that thing, if he or she does not do the thing that they were born to do, it will never be done. And so I wanted to impart that because there is something in you that is both unique and distinctive. And the world needs it desperately. And so if you don't do it, it will never be done. And so if not now, then when, and if not you, then who? So please don't let this world and the horrendous environment that we are in discourage you from fulfilling your craft and your art and giving us what we need, which is your unique distinctive thing.